supreme court cases do you foresee coming? >>guest: at tough question. historians are reluctant to predict. one of the things we see happening across the country especially in major protestant denominations methodist, episcopalians, pr esbyterians and on down the line are fighting with each other about the sanctity of same-sex relationships further back but still bitter about the ordination of women and we see litigation and every state and differing standards applied as to whether a group can take its property with that. we have opinions from south

carolina, california, virgin ia, massachusetts, connectic ut, i could go down the line and these are high ticket items a lot of real estate involved tens of millions of dollars each. the episcopal church spending millions of dollars every year just on lawyer's fees. these difficult questions with longstanding denominations across america >>host: sarah gordon professor of constitutional law and history at the university of pennsylvania and the author of "the spirit of the law" religious voices and the constitution in modern america". >>guest: thank you so much.

>>host: "confederate reckoning" power and politics in the civil war south" the author is history professor stephanie mccurry from the university of pennsylvania. first of all, professor what is the painting on the front of your book? >> a civil war painting of a battleship going down the confederate flag going down in flames. it is not military history but it tells about what the book is about. >>host: professor stephanie mccurry give us

the demographics of the south in 1860. >>guest: that is a crucial question because they went to war to make a new nation and they were smaller than the union to start with compared to the 10 million at the with the 22 but the military fact minutes is not paid as much attention to above 4 million wear black and in slaved. when it came to mobilize they did not have access to 10 million people but the white population of 6 million have for women and many were under age so the demographics were tough. >>host: how many white males came from the confederate south? >> i tried to figure out how many men are of voting age. and i figure there was long

planned five boding a to wightman of course, it stirred smaller 18 through 35 than it was 15 through 65. >>host: one did bandages going into the civil war besides cotton it that we hear about four years as one of the advantages, what with the advantages? >> it is hard to figure out how they thought they could do this. as lee said when they surrendered there we're overwhelmed by the industrial north and agricultural south than two-thirds of the capital begin with enslaved human beings. when they made the confederates seal they had to ship it out and bring it and they did not have the capacity to make it. it is a great question because it is easy to list the thing is that they don't have that they did have a lot of confidence in their

own political endeavor and just as they had made the united states what it was that they could secede to make another country independent nation state and could build a proper nation state on the basis of content and slaves. they talked about this a lot and for the first couple years they compare themselves to other european countries with natural resources, the value of the trade, population, they were riding high. the confederacy is often misunderstood thinking of it as a defensive move there we're losing and decided to take this campbell but there were the only slave holding class lew did it. the cubans with holders cover brazilian, why did

these guys do it? >> i tried to explain what was the mind-set? it is completely fascinating to get inside the mind of this incredibly powerful and political power and they were used to running the united states and did not doubt their ability to do this. the confidence is there and a big piece of the story. >>host: was their overwhelming support for secession? >> no. an interesting political campaign. when i have written about it three or four times it is as interesting as any campaign and karl rove would have been impressed. most of the political elites, only one-third of adults white men own slaves and most did not own any but

that was orchestrating this was confident they could do this and believed they could pull off and did not have trouble lining each other but the challenge was it was but there were no property qualifications left so they had to sell it to win the election. there were not at all confident with incredible paramilitary violence and intimidation and the results are and even they pulled off in south carolina by lunch on the first day that is how they went out by what had preceded that? >> when you are in a meeting and everything is unanimous don't you get suspicious? there is a lot of back story how they pulled that off.

other places the back story showed in alabama and the representative charged their run and of the union and democracy was violated and virginia said no ordinary farmer voted for this the elites have run as out of the union without the proper consideration of a democratic process. it is interesting it is very revealing what democracy meant in 1860. they called it a democracy although they often made the case with they really wanted was a republic and that was part of the reason they've did not like the direction politics was going but they had to play the game they strongarm it through bin in

the upper south the normal democratic process did not yield to secession and not until four sumpter was fired on even then eight states for seceded and ford didn't so was incredibly contentious and divisive that means it was fighting with the levin slave states -- 11 instead of 15. so you already see the breaking off of the south fate with the confederacy. >>host: did jefferson davis actually when an election? >> he was a senator. he was nominated in a constitutional convention of

the moderates of montgomery february 1861. i don't think he did actually. people think the emetic -- emitter -- american constitution was a replica but it wasn't. they innate made a number of crucial changes and one was the one-term executive of five years so he avoided reelection. >>host: professor stephanie mccurry was there lot of political infighting during the war in the south? >> there was. and no formal political parties. what is interesting about the confederacy is a lot of things were planned but never materialized. the political opposition in a clique form but everybody

was a democrat. there was not a republican party ticket you could not vote for him and maybe in the deep south you could go for lincoln but they were all watching aunt and some of those were profoundly opposed to the davis a administration on good grounds that the davis administration was one of the most centralizing federal a concentrated power regimes of the entirety of american history. one political scientist looks at the union government, and the federal government of the union and in the confederacy and he said that was the lead by a fine state and the states never had a government that big until the new deal. they seceded on states' rights because they had to

this enormous apparatus. they conscripted within a year. think about that with state power then they pass taxes within a year, and had agents all over the south literally taking food out of the barnes. they impressed the men's slaves and that is what is fascinating is the huge slaveholders go to war to protect slavery then they find out the new government is there to protect there slaves in war but it turns to use those to win the war. there was the tussle between the slave owners and confederate -- federal befriend the also wrote the amendment that congress could never abolish slavery

they had a problem of sovereignty and could not reach the slaves for a meal -- male bodies they could now reach him without the permission of the owner they had codified them as private property and they had to live with that. can you imagine they were mortgaged up to the eyeballs they did not want to send up their sleeves with 20,000 that were talking about letting go and what it meant to have a powerful ally and one of the engineers in virginia said slaves to like to do this work they know not for personal reasons but also because they don't want to do labor. they say this from the labor that is fighting for emancipation. some of the stories are

watching the psychology of the slaveholders change better so accustomed to thinking of them as human beings but one whose desires or objectives have no meaning they are just instruments to the masters will and from the minute lincoln is elected they start noticing the difference of the behavior of the slaves on the plantation. i actually use plantation records they think it is an element of strength we can put it in every white man in to the army and the soon as they try to do that they come up against those who will not slip -- send there slaves because they are in rebellion on the plantation it is fascinating that human struggle the seizing of the

levers of history a highly into the nature men and women and children is an amazing part of the story and not one that often makes it into the documentary's. it is a fine grain but at a human level it is an epic and compelling. >>host: what about the role of southern white women during the founding of the confederacy? >>guest: this is one of the things i have worked on my whole career and feel this heavyweight of history to say are we really going to go on in the 21st century to right history that women don't matter and attempt to shape the present and their future and with the confederacy at the time of secession obviously women do have a vote but that doesn't mean they'll have political opinions, right?

but they are made into a symbol of the nation and patriotism and those who are for secession they say they are with us are those who are against it and they defied along the same lines as men. some become increasingly more confederate there are many poor white women who think this is a crazy idea and some he leads worried about their son or rational and pragmatic but the moment where women step into the making of history past to do with that question about the demographics. they go to war against the union and especially after mcclellan got the boost when grant and sherman were running the show, one of the

union tactics was to bring more and more men into new depress the confederacy's simultaneously. this was brilliant their refuse them the ability to lose around more than a correspondent. but the rate of military service and long wait -- white men was between 75 and 85 percent of military age men. there not many other examples in history when i tell my colleagues are you sure? and by the end age was 15 through 55 what does the whole file looks like? women describe it the other

thing to keep in mind is in a cultural country. but they always worked in the field. the house but they were supplementing their teenage son now they do on their own. the way women become political persons that the government has to reckon with especially at the state level because they start to be seized the government with letters especially with the tales of woe how they make food and then they get angry and threatened to bring down the deserters deserters, the guerrillas and in the end the

confederacy has a starvation level food crisis and when it happens they know it is coming. the county clerk's are writing each other to say you cannot take any more food out for the army they are starving. the women step in to represent the communities to really attack the government and the rich man war becomes a women's fight as well and the leominster to reroute the power into their hands and make themselves a powerful constituency and there are food riots starting an atlanta and more than one dozen sweeps the confederacy all by women

from one dozen and enrichment is from crowds of other people. the press thinks is this a conspiracy. its women and in richmond all the court records are there this was planned for a least 10 days and called them to a public meeting and told them to come to the market the next morning to leave their children at home and come armed and they did. they ripped up the war and the warehouses in richmond. for a month but then but the

union was gloating this must be the end and the women are up in arms. they stepped into the making of history and really put the confederate states and government on notice if they take their men they will have answered to them and the interesting and important political moment for the confederacy and the united states. >>host: what is the level of desertion? >> it is higher than the union but it also has a desertion problem. the confederacy struggles mightily with honor and unionist guerrilla bands. postdates had a lot of unionist activity within them because when the davis

administration makes the governors go after the men who are refusing to serve or who have deserted, and they try clemency, all kinds of things but also sent out troops to bring them in and then they can't find them because the deserters are not staying at home. they are hiding in the only people they confine there the women so they torture them for information about there whereabouts. i know if you have seen the movie cold mountain but it uses documents from the north carolina archive that describe the torture of the unionist women to extract information about the whereabouts of their men and in many cases they find them sometimes execute them other times they bring them in to subject them to procedures to put them back in the army

but they have so few men to start with then they have to constantly deployed troops to keep slaves to run away and also defer troops to contain the deserters. so the pressure for them by 1863 the secretary of war says there are no more white men to be had. at that point* the conversation starts seriously if they use black soldiers. bizarre corer a perfect arc of justice that we have to consider but that is another story i tell.

they don't contemplate emancipation from the goodness of their heart but some people were willing to and slave those men that the confederate congress and the legislature refused to right the emancipation in clause. >> have much of a non starter that was? the demographics you ask about are intimately connected with the political challenges and political failure of the confederacy. i tried to but let's talk about the confederacy and ask why did they do this to take seriously the confederate project?